On Thursday, a jury foreman said the word “guilty” 34 times.
It was a historic moment, the conclusion of a trial that made Donald Trump the first former president in US history to be convicted of serious crimes. The case revolved around falsified business records related to a hush payment made in the weeks before the 2016 election. One of the recipients? Adult filmmaker Stormy Daniels, whose real name is Stephanie Clifford.
“When we started making this movie, people had a really strange love-hate relationship with Stormy,” said Erin Lee Carr, one of the producers of “Stormy.” “The vast majority of people only knew her as a porn star who slept with Donald Trump. “We set out to tell the story of this whole, three-dimensional person who was not believed time and time again.”
Daniels has long maintained that when she met Trump in 2006 at a charity golf tournament, they had sex (although Trump has continually denied they had a relationship) and that it was consensual. Her testimony at Trump's trial in New York, which was not televised, reflects what she has said over the years, but her portrait that night was also more nuanced: Daniels testified that she did not feel physically or verbally threatened, but realized that he was “Bigger and blocking the way.” “The next thing I knew, he was in bed,” she said.
It's similar to what he told the filmmakers of “Stormy.” The documentary premiered on Peacock in March, days before Trump's trial originally began. “I don't remember how I got to bed,” she told director Sarah Gibson, who co-produced the documentary with Carr. During Daniels' testimony, Trump attorney Susan Necheles questioned her about the details of the story and said : “You made all this up, right?” Daniels responded, “No.”
“There is a lot more work to be done in terms of believing women's stories and giving a voice to people with less power,” Gibson said. “For us, the fight continues.”
For now, Daniels and his role in the trial will go down in the history books. “There's that blue tab [in history textbooks] and explains who Stormy Daniels is,” Carr said, imagining what she would look like. “Please say Stormy Daniels, porn director. and star. Let's give women what they deserve. “Artist and then whistleblower.”
On Friday morning, Gibson and Carr spoke via Zoom about the verdict, what Daniels told them after and during the trial, and how the public reacted to his documentary, which recently premiered in the UK. This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.
Sarah Gibson, left, and Stormy Daniels at the “Stormy” premiere at SXSW in March.
(Amy E. Price/SXSW via Getty Images)
Where were you when you heard the verdict and what were your thoughts when the guilty charges were announced?
Sara Gibson: We were actually on FaceTime together. [Erin] He was on the tennis court watching and I was at home on my couch in complete and utter disbelief. He had been following the trial like a hawk. I really felt like I was going to possibly end up with a hung jury, like a lot of other people, and I was impressed. In fact, this morning I woke up thinking I had dreamed it all and I was almost scared when I read the news because I couldn't believe it. We immediately got to work updating the text cards at the end of our movie to reflect the latest news.
Have you spoken to Stormy since the verdict came out?
Gibson: Have. Yesterday she sent me photographs from home of her and her daughter. It was very emotional for me because at the beginning, when we started this project, I was like, “Why are you doing this?” And she said, “I'm doing this so my daughter can know the truth.” That was very powerful.
What happens during the trial?
Gibson: We did it. It was very hard for her the first day on the stand. She then she did an incredible job on cross-examination. I had contacted her just by text message. [message] throughout that process.
Ultimately, did you feel that your testimony reinforced the points made in the film?
Erin Lee Carr: It is the real end of this never-ending saga. They didn't believe him. And guess what? A jury believed him and wholeheartedly believed all of his testimony, leading to a 34-count guilty verdict. We were beside ourselves. We made the movie we wanted to make…its credibility is there, through the power of what Sarah did, but also through the criminal justice system. The epilogue to this that we still hope to be resolved is whether he still owes Donald Trump more than $600,000. [Daniels owes Trump legal fees for a defamation lawsuit she lost but contends the suit was filed without her permission by her former lawyer, Michael Avenatti.] He is still indebted to the person who did this, who is now a convicted felon. While we rejoice and are very excited, there is always a little bit when it comes to taking on Donald Trump.
Have you heard any other reactions since the documentary came out or during the trial from people who participated in it or from viewers?
Gibson: The response I've been reading online, from people who have seen it, has been overwhelmingly positive. The film has done very well on the Peacock platform; It has remained among the 10 best documentaries they have made. It has just been released in the UK to one of the biggest audiences ever and in the UK Channel 5 schedule I think the film will have a long life until the election. It's work we're really proud of. And I think the public has shown it, especially the female spectators, [who] have resonated greatly with many of the film's themes of being bullied for not being believed. It is a universal story.
Carr: We haven't received a review from Michael Avenatti, who looks like he could tweet from prison, but hasn't been able to see our movie. I look forward to the day when he sees the reality of what he did within a documentary.
Speaking of harassment, throughout the documentary you showed examples of how Stormy was being harassed. Did she mention concerns about her safety?
Gibson: I haven't spoken to her directly about it since the trial, but I do know that she had her most beloved bodyguard with her during all of her court dates in New York. I've been reading the threats she's been receiving online. I read the comments. When Channel 5 airs this in the UK, the hate it gets isn't just American, it's global. misogyny [directed] Unfortunately, in our world there is a universal chauvinistic power that continues to attack her and many other women who speak out, including people like Taylor Swift. Any woman who speaks out and has power, or tries to retract her own narrative, receives these threats. She has said that she may have to leave the country regardless of the outcome of this case.
[As we’re speaking, Carr drops a tweet from Avenatti in the Zoom chat]
The fact that people still believe that our criminal legal system is fair and gives defendants a real chance at justice is ridiculous. More than 95% of all cases end in conviction. How can anyone argue that such a rigged system is fair? Unfortunately, Trump is the latest victim.
—Michael Avenatti (@MichaelAvenatti) May 31, 2024
Carr: I'm just posting what Avenatti said about Trump's conviction 39 minutes ago.
Gibson: Oh Lord. What did he say?
Carr: “The fact that people still believe that our criminal justice system is fair and gives defendants a real chance at justice is ridiculous. More than ninety-five percent of all cases end in conviction. How can anyone argue that such a rigged system is fair? Unfortunately, Trump is the latest victim.”
What a turn of events!
Carr: Do you know what I say to that? Quite.
Have you given more thought to pursuing this in any way?
Gibson: We've been swimming in spicy waters. We are very grateful for this experience and will continue the work of believing in women in truly controversial films. But for now we are not planning a sequel to this film.
Carr: We are personally involved in what happens with Stormy's finances and her house and the legal battle between her and Trump in terms of that case. We, as human beings and as journalists, will follow it and see what can be done. All of our heart, all of our soul, all of Stormy's story was put into that movie. I think we went through 80 different versions. We hoped that would be one of the last words said on the subject. It is the definitive piece [on] someone who literally took down the then president of the United States and brought him to justice.
Gibson: I was thinking to myself yesterday, I sent this to Stormy. I said, “You're a historical figure.” Now, the way we remember Rosa Parks, we will remember Stormy Daniels, the way we think about Joan of Arc. [Daniels] He is a perfectly imperfect icon that will be in the history books. I am honored that she trusted us to tell her story.
Carr: Judd Apatow, one of our producers, called me yesterday. He said, “Congratulations, you helped change the world!” I don't want to speak for him, but there is a portion of the population, that small percentage, who will really care that Trump is a convicted felon. Everything we are discussing is moving towards what will happen in November? Ultimately, that's part of our ultimate goal. Was there anyone whose opinion changed? Obviously, these parts are very controversial. But we are hopeful that people will consider this when they think about who they want to vote for in the next election.
